citylogs | [ closed ] out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field

Two mint plants grown in indoor conditions with perfectly measured ratios will still turn out differently, Alhaitham. One might even fail entirely. There may not even be a perceivable reason why. That's the thing, with living creatures - you can't measure such things. Plants count.

[ ... ] Oh, but that's terribly depressing. Is onions and root vegetables day in and day out worth living for?

Perhaps not perceivable, but you can remove the other potential causes to narrow the difference down to a genetic factor and make a reasonable assessment. But the caretaker can't be held responsible for something's innate inability to thrive. Those issues are statical outliers. Take a random assortment of mint plants and most will respond to the same care with only superficial differences.

And we could be here all night and the next morning trying to establish a metric for when life ceases to become worth living.

[Which is Alhaitham's idea of a good time, granted.] I wouldn't give up over onions.

[ the look that kaveh casts over his shoulder manages to both be half scathing and half decidedly fond. there are sumeran academics, and then there's whatever that alhaitham is. ]

We're shelving the discussion on mint plants to when we have a mint plant between us to murder. Fair enough? Preferably several so that we can take turn seeing if a living mint plant and a dead mint plant makes for superficial differences.

And do it, if you are asserting you aren't a coward. [ because there's a reason why kaveh and alhaitham get along: ] I would give up over onions, even if there were potatoes in the bargain. Name the first metric for when life ceases to become worth living, and I'll see if it's worth arguing against.

[ the debate slides along like so - the ebbing and flow of an argument batted about with the casual understanding that the stakes at play are so insignificant they aren't worth defending over. kaveh's hands don't quite cease. the onion is peeled. the meat is prepared. the rice is steamed after kaveh rigs a mechanism with a large bowl, a pot lid and a serving spoon, and soon, the apartment wafts with the scent of spices tossed over an oiled pan.

kaveh emerges from the tailend of the discussion on if a life is not worth living if sweets are not involved to say: ]

Sugar makes people happy! It is well-known that sugar is as addictive as some of the prescribed and controlled drugs, and even some of the weirder things that come out of Avidya Forest. It follows that sugar withdrawal is equally terrible. And do you know what else would make me happy? If you can make yourself useful for once and set the table. Or are we going to eat straight out of the pan like condemned undergraduates?

[Truly, Alhaitham's natural knack for existing on the wrong side of human normality must almost seem intentional with how he is a constant vexation to the people around him. Unfortunately, he's just like this.

His shoulder shrugs as his sign of agreement to drop the mint plant topic. For now. But if they find seeds or living mint plants he is absolutely obligating Kaveh to this experiment.

Kaveh immediately follows up with a challenge to take the next debate, and Alhaitham's lips curl into the faint impression of a smile.]

Fine. [He holds up a finger.] Since you would already give up over onions, there's no point going down.

[So they go up. Cheese, art, comfort, books (Alhaitham insists he won't give up over those), socializing, what starts as a scale turns into a mental scatter plot of points trying to identify the area in which living becomes not even worth surviving.

Somehow it gets around to desserts.] Is this your way of confessing to a sugar addiction too?

[Which he punctuates with a huff, but he does lean off the counter to open a different cabinet for plates and cutlery.] In that case, is life worth living without alcohol?

It has to be. [ the meat and onions are corralled onto a plate. kaveh sifts through another cabinet to find two bowls for the rice, and then balances all three along his arms with the aplomb of someone who's been to and successfully earned a degree from architecture school.

the dishes slide onto the table. ] My argument on this point is sophist in nature. If alcohol is capable of ruining lives, then it follows that there had to have existed a life worth ruining. Ergo, the life is worth living without alcohol.

[ and then kaveh looks. ] But it'd be significantly less fun! There was a man on the device who sampled every beer this place had. Can you imagine that being the first thing you do upon arriving? But somehow, it's not even out of the question. They've innovated more than just the elements of the city that we can see.

Every beer? It's barely been a day. [Alhaitham raises a brow.] You wouldn't even be able to tell what you were tasting after a point, and what good is the data if it's sloppy?

[Of course he feels the need to critique the methodology here. You'd think some of these people have never had to write a thesis.

Anyway. He slides into the chair.] But fine, I agree that life without alcohol is still worth living. So we can count that variable out.

Right? Though as far as his explanation had gone, he'd simply wanted to get terribly drunk to test if there are any public indecency rules in this world. He hadn't woken up in handcuffs, however.

[ kaveh settles himself along his side of the table. he fishes out a fork for himself. it's his turn: ]

The capacity to gain new knowledge, or lack thereof. Essential?

Edited 2023-07-19 01:32 (UTC)

[Alhaitham narrows his eyes.]

The need to progress is as inherent a drive to humanity as to consume food and procreate--and is only possible through new knowledge. Can it even be called survival for the mind to degrade even if the body does it?

[Now that he's split hairs about this being a Need and not a Want:] No, I wouldn't live a life where I no longer had anything to learn.

[ kaveh's smile shows teeth. ]

We're in agreement, then. What's this, the first real thing we've agreed on today? Luckily for us, it seems that there's still plenty to learn about this world in the interim.

That's nothing unusual. [Disagreeing on anything and everything, only to find the one topic they are aligned on.

He strikes his fork into a piece of meat first, popping it whole into his mouth. It tastes as he expects--that is, it tastes of Kaveh's cooking and that is something deeply normal and familiar in an unfamiliar place. Letting him take over for dinner was a good idea (as if Alhaitham doesn't leave Kaveh to do the cooking as much as possible).]

[ kaveh eats. meat and onions; you couldn't get anything more simple. he'll have to be creative, kaveh thinks, with the limited range of ingredients they have. or he has. the discomfort lingers along the set rails of that thought: if he lives apart from alhaitham, it will be a singular 'i', rather than 'we'.

still: ]

The lack of books here will be an issue, though. That is, if all the books are like the ones you've found.

[Alhaitham stops. Wrinkles his nose. Proceeds with the next bite.]

Even without books, there's always practical discovery.

[But the bigger issue is: how quickly is Alhaitham going to get bored without a single piece of literature to read. Even a novel.]

[ ugh. ]

You're not suited for the practical. Or rather, this world isn't suited to you being practical. The last time you were practical about anything, you toppled a government. Our government.

Our government was building an artificial god. [And Kaveh, incapable of minding his own business, would have been leading the charge the minute the traveler walked across his path. Alhaitham doesn't call him out on that because he doesn't have to.] Cyno was there too, you know.

You mean at least Cyno was there. Cyno's trustworthy, and then there's you.

[ but there's far less censure there than there ought to be, kaveh thinks. it's hard to, when in the end, it did work out. kaveh breathes out in the way of a sigh. ] Still, did you ever find out what happened to the artificial god that they tried to make? They were nearly successful, weren't they?

The Traveler and Lord Kusanali dismantled it. Seems they had some idea of using human wisdom and a gnosis to power a mechanical suit. I'd guess our Archon has the gnosis now and the machine is a pile of scrap in some basement.

[Because, well, after you meet the Traveler you realize what chaos flows through their wake. And they surely didn't leave much of that fake god standing.] Whether you could call it nearly successful is debatable, but they did get extremely far in their plan. That they were able to hide it all the way to that stage...

[ alhaitham trails of. kaveh knows the traced lines of that silence. he's thought it himself in the aftermath: that the most powerful individuals in their country had been able to hide such a thing for such a long time beneath their noses. the thought is nearly unfathomable, until it became not so.

centuries of corruption. alhaitham had been instrumental in cleaning up its vestiges in the aftermath. in a way, alhaitham had sacrificed quite a bit of what made up his personal comfort for something that he had never asked for. ]

Well, you were able to follow its paperwork trail in the end. If there was anyone who was capable of it, it would've been you - and it was you. [ kaveh's fork scrapes his plate. ] Still, you had books to distract you back then, even. You don't have any such things right now. Don't get into trouble beyond documented compare, Alhaitham. I won't always be around to get you out of it.

[Really, it was a small enough sacrifice until he was admittedly blindsided by being put up as Acting Grand Sage. He understands the logic, but he just doesn't have the personality to tolerate that much responsibility or power. Luckily he's managed to discard most of it and return to being the Scribe with a little more infamy than before.

At that, Alhaitham snorts out a laugh.] Shouldn't I be saying that to you? Trouble might as well be your actual name with how often you find yourself in it.

[ alhaitham laughs. kaveh allows the egregious roll of his eyes to punctuate his words. ]

Says you. At least none of my trouble has ever involved having to break our god of out proverbial jail. You really have no right in calling anything I do trouble anymore in comparison. And before you say anything - yes, Alhaitham. It's always a matter of comparison and scale.

That's only because you were gallivanting in the desert. [He sets down his fork, propping his chin on his hand as he leans forward.] Had it not been for that, you would have certainly found yourself at the center of it.

[Because this is Kaveh, who is incapable of minding his own business.] And frequency is still an important metric.

[ there's nothing to say for that. kaveh knows his own measure. he knows that the building would've needed demolition if it the cage hadn't been opened on its own. he, too, props his hand on his chin, and leans. the distance between them is as it ever was: enough, just enough. ]

It is. As is severity. Or will you debate me on that as well?

Of course. [Fondness grips his smile, and he purses his lips to reel it in only a second later.]

To start, are we judging severity based on total consequences or personal risk?

Total consequences, obviously, because your sense of personal risk is broken. [ says kaveh, with the kind of droll you ought to reserve for someone who doesn't have a track record of changing the trajectory of your society as you know it. ]

Prepare your argument as I do the dishes. Did you get any of the liquid soap that they have here? The stuff is marvelous; it seems to strip the oils from whatever surface it ends up on.

Pot, kettle. [That phrase Kaveh does like to use.

Alhaitham gathers his plate to take it to the sink, but that's as much assistance as he's offering.] I did, but I also brought bar soap in case the efficacy was overstated. You're free to try it.

[It's lemon scent.]

Kettle, pot.

[ the scent of lemon overpowers. kaveh brings his own plate to the sink, and adds it to the insubstantial pile there. steel wool, it seems, is still used to scrub pans, though there's also this yellow and green thing that objectively falls under the category of 'sponge', but is made of material that kaveh has never seen or felt before. it's elastic under his touch, and provides a surprisingly good grip on the green side.

fascinating, this world. fascinating, that there exists a civilisation that lives like this. if this is a true civilisation. ]

Hm. I'll use the liquid soap today, then, and have the bar soap tomorrow. It's only a miniature experiment, but it'll do for an impromptu test.

[ closed ] out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field

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